Welcome to the PT Rebels Podcast. This is the place to learn how you can become a PT rebel and take charge of your own health and wellness. We will help you find answers to your questions about pain, injury, and the path towards healing in the most efficient and effective way possible. I’m your host, Dr. Gina Fick.

On today’s episode, I sit down with my friend, Dr. Jamie Moore, owner and founder of Rehab Athletics in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. We’ll be discussing modern day sports physical therapy, as well as the athletes that we serve. Today we will be diving into some of the hottest topics surrounding sports physical therapy. We’ll discuss what you should look for in a sports physical therapist and some of the key ways that you can work to mitigate injury risk, and optimize your athletic performance.

Dr. Jamie Moore is the founder and owner of Rehab Athletics in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. Jamie is a doctor of physical therapy and certified athletic trainer. He is a movement expert and specializes in athletic pain, injury prevention, orthopedic and musculoskeletal injuries, as well as sports performance integration and return to sport. Since 2013, he has worked in clinical orthopedic sports performance and on the sidelines treating a wide variety and range of athletes. In addition to being a treating physical therapist, Jamie is an international educator, husband and father. Jamie, welcome to the podcast. It’s an honor to have you on today.

Jamie: Super excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me. I am beyond pumped to chat with you today.

Dr. Fick: Awesome. Jamie, I just wanted to see if you could just tell us first more about yourself, your background, your experience. Tell us all about Rehab Athletics and the vision of your practice.

Jamie: Yeah, so I would say probably similar to most PTs out there, I had an injury in high school, had an amazing recovery process while in high school I was pretty great. I enjoyed it. Came back, got to finish my senior year. I was a hockey player and lacrosse player, so I got to finish my hockey season and then play my whole lacrosse season. So that was pretty amazing. Took my, to take my LeBron James reference, I took my talents to Connecticut. Small school called Quinnipiac University, where I spent the next seven years in the AT/MPT programs. Amazing opportunities and I’m super blessed for everything that they’ve given me. Got to work on the sidelines with some pretty cool experiences. Got to work with a multitude of the sports at Quinnipiac, where I got to kind of hone in and understand the athlete. As an athletic trainer, I think obviously the skill sets can be similar, but really got to hone in and understand the backside of the athlete being a student athletic trainer. And then finished up at Yale University as their like, I guess, rehab assistant with the football team for spring football, which was pretty cool.

Then graduated PT school and did your typical orthopedic outpatient clinical rotations. It was pretty not enthused by it, which sucked ’cause I knew that that was the direction that I was going to go as a physical therapist. Then I was really blessed with the opportunity to go down to EXOS in Frisco, Texas as a student for my last clinical rotation. I think like every bright eyed student thought I’d have this really cool clinical experience and they would just offer me a job on the spot. And I was moving to Texas and obviously that didn’t happen. So I moved back up to New York and I spent two years working in New York in your typical outpatient setting. A little bit of sports like any other clinic, typical mill setting, right? 2, 3, 4 an hour as it progressed and insurance rates got worse. And then I was really, once again, blessed with the opportunity to go back down to Frisco, Texas and join the team at EXOS.

So I spent the better part of four years really working in the private side of professional athletics. Got to work alongside amazing athletes. Working in preparation for the NFL combine, NBA combine, MLB off season. I had some UFC athletes, some national women’s soccer league, some LPGA, NHL. I really got to do a lot down there. Obviously we all got struck in 2020 by COVID, which actually put me out of a job. I was sitting on my couch in Texas waiting to get, have the opportunity to go back to work. And at that point I kind of had to self reflect on like what I was doing, like what was I working for, what was I working towards? And with everything that happened, I didn’t want to be so far from my family. So my wife and I did our due diligence and we knew we wanted to move back up to the northeast. So we kind of started to look at different cities and what I found was that there was a little bit of a void and a little bit of a gap in the greater Philadelphia area, the suburbs of Philadelphia. So that’s where I currently am now.

My wife and I moved back to the northeast in the middle of 2021 and that’s where what is now Rehab Athletics was born and I started my company. I started Rehab Athletics for the sole purpose of being able to provide an opportunity for everyone to get the kind of care that professional athletes only get. I think as we see the youth development athletic world, the weekend warrior, the recreational athlete, the active individual. For some reason, and we are those people, like I am that person. We don’t get access to the quality and style of care that professional athletes get. And I never understood why it didn’t make sense to me. So that’s what I set out to make my mission at least one of my missions in the local area. That is the sole basis of what Rehab Athletics is. I tell people when I talk to people on the phone, when I meet people, you’re gonna get the exact same care that my professional athletes that are coming in right before you or right after, are getting. We don’t offer any different, we don’t offer any upcharge, no upsell. It is what it is. You get what you get. I mean, everyone gets treated the same. So that’s really what I wanted to do and what I have set out to do. And so far I’ve been in business for two years and we have been just doing just fine and on that track, and it has been great to be able to really witness the effect and the change that we can have in the youth athlete and the college athlete and the weekend warrior by implementing these same ideas, the same global approaches that traditionally we don’t get access to.

Dr. Fick: That’s really so similar to the mission and vision of Fick PT, and so I was, I’m so excited to talk with you about this today because really that’s why I started our practice. We see active adults and athletes of all ages, and I want them to have the same experience no matter if, you know, they’re a youth athlete, collegiate, or professional athlete. So I really, that really resonates with me and I think we have very similar treatment styles. I’m actually from Texas, just north of Frisco, so I didn’t know that you were there for four years. That’s pretty cool. And I highly respect EXOS. I really like their education model and their treatment strategies and how they assess and treat not only athletes, but just active adults and individuals as a whole. And so we really strive to apply a lot of those principles as well in our practice here. So thank you for sharing your story. I think that will really resonate with a lot of our listeners today.

So Jamie, when we’re talking about sports physical therapy, we hear a lot of practices and companies that say they do sports physical therapy or other sports physical therapists. But I would like for you to help define what is sports physical therapy and what makes someone a good sports physical therapist.

Jamie: So I will start by saying that whatever the APTA says is not the definition of sports physical therapy. Right. I think the hard part is as we’re seeing this trend, and before I give you my answer, what frustrates me is I’m watching the trend of what was sports medicine now become the trend of sports physical therapy. What do I mean by that? Sports medicine became an unfortunate blanket term over time, that everyone just threw it on every single brand, every single clinic. To the fact that it was diluted and it doesn’t mean anything anymore. It basically means orthopedics like sports medicine now means sports like orthopedics, which sucks ’cause it’s not what it is. And I believe sports medicine is very different than just traditional outpatient orthopedics. I think it ends up being like a grab at marketing and all that kind of stuff. So unfortunately I think sports physical therapy is trending in that direction, which sucks to me.

Sports physical therapy is utilizing the application and knowledge of human movement with regards to sport as it pertains to the rehabilitation process, which I, and I don’t think that there needs to be anything wrong with being an outpatient orthopedics physical therapist that works with athletes. I think there is a difference between sports physical therapy, and that in my head, we need to have a true understanding of the demands, the stresses, and the needs that the human body is gonna take with regards to sport. When we look at the different kinds of sports, each one has different kinds of demands. It’s not just saying that I played hockey growing up, so I am a good physical therapist for hockey players. I think there’s a lot of knowledge and background that needs to go into that and understanding of the three dimensional rotational movement with all joints of the body. Right. To be able to say that I’m like an expert hockey, so, and I’m not saying I am, but to me, sports physical therapy is really like the deeper understanding of that.

And what frustrates me is obviously now we have the SCS, which is a great clinical asset doesn’t mean that you’re like an expert in sports. It means that you either did a residency or it means you pass an exam and I respect it, but I think to me, a sports physical therapist really is somebody that understands the needs and the biomechanical needs and the force needs for an athlete, somebody that is doing X or Y, we need to be able to break down for the client or Y. This lack of dorsiflexion is so important and how this lack of dorsiflexion is leading to the issues that are going on in your hip, which is why you’re struggling a golf club, if you’re looking at an athlete with, you know, a very inexperienced eye, I don’t know that you’re as capable or as skilled yet in being able to determine what those movement deficiencies are and how that plays in. So I think it takes a lot of time. I think it takes a lot of dedication and commitment through the craft of physical therapy in order to be able to break down those things, and spending time with mentors I think is really important in order, someone that’s really skilled at assessing biomechanics or assessing the needs of those different sports.

Dr. Fick: You know, I’ve spent a lot of time in my career talking with coaches and watching sports and slowing down sports, whether it’s running football, if I’m looking at a recording, fast forwarding, zooming, reversing, just looking at all the dimensions of that, of the movements and what the athlete’s required to do, and understanding the importance of how their deficiencies relate. So I think you’re right. I think it takes a lot of time and dedication and, you know, I think that our professionals developed in the, in a way that is good and in terms of like residencies and certifications. But I think unless you really dive in and make the commitment and take the time that it takes to really be good at assessing these types of movements and being able to communicate that with the athlete as well and transfer what we’re seeing as movement deficiencies into specific movement tasks and skills related to what they have to do on the field or on the court. I think that’s what makes a really good sports physical therapist, and I think that time and dedication to that is what a good sports physical therapist is willing to do so.

Jamie: And what I think is really hard right, is we live in a society that everyone wants everything right now. Like everyone’s instantaneous. And what I, what I used to take students, I don’t take students anymore. I’m working on the opportunity to have students in the future through an online platform and courses and things like that. What I think, as hard as everyone wants it right now, everyone is right outta school and I want to do this and, and it’s like, it’s okay to let it take time. Like you’re not gonna, you’re, we’re gonna do this for a long time. One of my mentors said to me early on in my career. You’re gonna be a physical therapist for the next 40 years. Like it’s okay that you’re not that good at your job right now. Like if you’re in your 30 and you’re not good at your job, different story. So I think like it needs to be okay with us that you might not be at the level of a sports physical therapist yet, right? Like not everybody is Tom Brady. Not every quarterback in the NFL gets paid $50 million a year. I just saw a statistic yesterday. Brock Purdy is the 80th highest paid quarterback in the NFL, right? He’s a starter, but he’s just not there yet. And he needs to be where he is right now to be able to get to potentially that space. And I think the same thing goes for us. We just look at it differently. It’s okay to be a student. It’s okay to be learning. It’s okay to be just a generalist. It’s okay to be an orthopedic person, and then transition yourself into higher understanding of sports versus just saying like, I’m a sports physical therapist and utilizing that.

Dr. Fick: Totally agree. What types of athletes do you treat in your practice and what is your approach to patient care in your practice?

Jamie: So I treat all athletes, but my preference is in, I would say my preference is in the rotational aspect of linear athletes. So my expertise and what I like, my bread and butter of what I’ve done for the last six years really relies on football. I’ve obviously worked a lot with basketball. I’ve worked a lot with baseball, with golfers, but football is kind of what I have spent a lot of time investing my efforts into and understanding the game of football. I didn’t play football growing up, which is the funny part, but really trying to understand and how we utilize the rotational component to every athlete for me is probably like number one and everything we do in life, even with regards to like our gait, right? Like just being able to walk is rotational in itself. Even though it looks linear, it looks sagittal, it is in fact rotational. There is tri planar activity at multiple joints, so I like to make sure that I am addressing in my approach to treating humans regardless of what they do, is making sure that we always address the rotational component at every single joint at all times. So there’s always some kind of rotational emphasis or anti rotational emphasis to almost everything that we do. ’cause that’s life. And I try to replicate forces of life into everything that we are working on within the clinical setting versus your traditional which I probably get some slack for your traditional like manmade movements and very sagittal movements, very like non-normal. Yes, squats are normal, but like nobody in life is really just squatting with the bar. Right? They’re doing something different. So I’ve actually, I don’t really squat, traditional squat with many people anymore. I kind of bury things up, but my approach is very, which is, it’s interesting to watch how it’s progressed, right? I think all of us progressed through our career.

My approach is outside of who I am normally very detailed and I try to make things as objective as possible and I didn’t use to do that. The sole purpose of, I just, I was sick of guessing and sick of pretending that I was getting the outcomes that I wanted to get versus actually ensuring that I am. And if I’m not, which happens most of the times if physical therapist, we need to know that we’re not actually getting the outcomes that we’re looking for. So often we’re just like, oh yeah, like do this, step up. It’s gonna help your, you know, help your low back because it’s gonna strengthen your glute med. If we don’t retest the glute med strength and we don’t have an isolated, like a true test, a four outta five is a subjective test in my opinion. We don’t have a true ability to test that. Like how do we know that the outcomes are that we want? We’re only regarding pain as like our outcome. So for us, I try to be as detailed as possible and I’m very holistic. I’m very big picture. I believe that when someone comes in with an injury in one place, 10 out of 10 times, it doesn’t come from that place, it stems from somewhere else. This is just like the area that we’re experiencing the symptomatic problem, but it’s not the root cause of the issue. And so to truly be able to help somebody, I need to know that if someone’s coming in with low back pain, they probably have some kind of limitations in their hips and probably have some kind of limitations in their ankles and potentially in their spine and and their neck. So if I’m doing them a disservice if I’m not looking at that. So I try to be as big picture as possible while also being strategic because obviously we don’t have all the time in the world, right?

Dr. Fick: I think that’s what makes you really good and successful sports physical therapist, because you are looking at the whole person, and I agree oftentimes, or most, most times, where their pain is isn’t necessarily where the pain generator is. So we need to hunt around and look for the movement deficiencies related to that. We started using the force plates and the hand dynamometers just to be able to objectively quantify their ability to produce force to absorb forces. It motivates the athletes. I had an athlete yesterday who was, you know, had about 25 to 30% asymmetry with eccentric forces and landing. And concentric was pretty good, but eccentric. He just wasn’t willing or he wasn’t able to really absorb forces as well on his left side, he was so motivated by seeing the graphs and the pictures and the numbers. He’s like, I wanna do it again. I wanna do, and how do I get better? And so you, you know, not only does it help us, give us information in terms of their asymmetries, but also it was very motivating to the patients and the clients. And it helps the, you know, parents or coaches as well see that and be able to understand, like what their deficiencies are related to their sport.

Jamie: Yeah, I mean, I think if we’re working with athletes, right, like athletes are objectively motivated as humans, like that is, it is sport. Like the only outcome is winning and the only way to win is by objectively doing better than the person they’re competing against. So without utilizing those in sports, why not use that to our advantage?

Dr. Fick: Exactly. Completely agree In your practice. What’s your care model? Do you have, is it more of a one-on-one approach? How much time are you able to spend with patients and what value you place in that?

Jamie: So it’s been interesting to watch, right? I think my, our model right now is one-on-one for an hour. I like to spend one-on-one time with people for a lot of reasons. I think being able to develop a therapeutic alliance, being able to develop trust, being able to develop understanding, and being able to create a relationship outside of like just moving. Right. I think that’s half of the battle with what we do is people have to enjoy spending time with us. Is it the most ideal model? To be honest, no. It’s not, in my honest opinion. Like if things were as perfect as they could be, I think probably 90 minutes, 75 to 90 minutes is probably the ideal sweet spot to be able to have somebody. The reason being is there’s only so much things that there’s only so much that we could do in 60 minutes that I never feel satisfied with what I can achieve with somebody. If I have more time and I know that I can achieve those things, I think the outcomes are better. Right? And the problem is, in our world, people don’t want to pay for more time and that needs to be okay. And so I only spend an hour with people.

What I hope to look to do in the future is really create a model where there’s, there is like a, you know, after session two, session three, we come in, we have some kind of like self input, right? Be that neurological, be that mobility. Like I think a lot of those things are autonomous in nature. And if we could teach somebody to do that, they should be coming in about 15, 20 minutes to hit the target areas that we know that we need to do. Then that allows us to already be primed, both nervous system and physically, and then spend some time on the table and then would still hopefully give us about 45 minutes of one-on-one time to go move. Right. Take my expertise to go through movement patterns, to go through change of direction, have like your true one-on-one expertise. And then in an ideal situation, we’re still working on some potentially energy system development. At the end, we’re still working on potentially like maybe your last one or two super sets of some strength blocks that we could do. I think in the ideal scenario, that’s what we would want, but people don’t wanna pay for that and that’s really hard to command from people in an hour and a half of their time. As it is, everyone wants less and less. They want it to do it faster and faster, so that’s where we’re at right now. I like to, I like to spend the one-on-one time with people. I think that there is a, there are huge advantages to being able to have somebody’s eye, even if you don’t have undivided attention. 80% of my attention is way better than 20 minutes of my attention.

Dr. Fick: Yeah, I a hundred percent agree. We have a one-on-one model here as well, and it does seem that sometimes it’s even difficult to get people to commit to 60 minutes. Sometimes people want 30 45, you know, just to rush in and rush out. And I think, you know, showing them the value in what we’re doing is really key. And I, you alluded to the term therapeutic alliance, and I really like that term and what you’re about with the term therapeutic alliance. Can you go into a little bit more detail about what that looks like with your clients and how that helps with buy-in? With getting the results that you both want outta the care.

Jamie: Yeah, so I’ll say like probably one of the things that shaped my career the most was just being true to myself. And I think throughout my entire career, I think really from a young age, but truly once I started in the sports medicine and athletic training and there was a lot of like push to conform to this like image, right? And like look a certain way, dress a certain way, act a certain way, and I just. There was something inside of me that said like, why can’t I be me and also be good at what I do? Like I don’t understand why I need to do exactly to a T by the book. Exactly. Look the way you want me to look like that doesn’t make sense. And I wasn’t raised in a household where we like believed in that. Right? Like we were very much raised like, be yourself, be unique. Be one of one. And so that is the basis of my practice and it pisses a lot of people off, and I really don’t care because it’s just like I only have to make myself happy at the end of the day. So I dress the way that I want, I talk the way that I want, and I look the way that I want when I’m working, and that has never changed the outcomes that I get.

So many times in my career there have been quote unquote issues. Obviously it doesn’t really matter. Here I am with those things and I think being able to create a unique connection with a client because I am authentically me and it is very evident that I’m authentically me at all times is to me probably the most important piece of building buy-in, in physical therapy. You need to come to me and just know like I’m getting a hundred percent raw, Jamie, and what that means is I’m not gonna tell you that it’s gonna take 10 sessions when it’s really only gonna take five, and I’m trying to milk you for money. Like, and if I tell you it’s gonna be 15 sessions, it’s probably going to be 15 sessions. If I tell you that these are the things you need to do, people understand that I’m telling them that for a reason. And I think that there’s always been like people ask, how do you get buy-in from clients? Like, how do you get people to, to believe in you and and agree with you? I’m just myself, like I’m nobody else. It’s very evident if I’m like, if I believe in something and I’m passionate about something and, and I think especially in the athletic world, forget like the general population world. ’cause I think most people don’t do that in their world anyway, especially with the presence of social media. Everyone’s a character. Everyone needs to be this person, and nobody really feels like they can act like themselves anymore.

Especially in the athletic world, I think athletes are even better at smelling out people’s BS. And they know when you’re being fake. I had an experience in my career one time where I was out and one of my clients had to be seen by another therapist, and I came back and he said to me, please never, like, I’m not coming in next time you’re not here. I never wanna see that person again. And I said, what was the reason? At the time, this was like my boss, right? So it was a little awkward. I was like, what was the reason? And I was like. He told me, he said, I could tell that he was trying to be someone that he was not to try to impress me, and I don’t like that. And, and I think that’s what it comes down to. Like if we’re authentically ourselves, we either connect or we don’t. One of the biggest things I actually went, I went on a little car rant yesterday, like one of the biggest issues that I have is we can’t all play nice together because we’re not confident in who we are as ourselves. So there are enough humans, athletes. People for us all to have clients everywhere. There’s a PT clinic on every corner everywhere you go, right? And none of us we’re all doing okay. So the fact that there’s like so much need for internal conflict and competition, right? All that tells us is that we’re not comfortable creating that one-on-one ’cause we’re not comfortable. Like I know what I know, I know what I don’t know. I know what I’m good at, I know what I’m not good at. And it’s really nice to be able to sense that with people. And I’m. I have no problem telling a client I don’t wanna work with you. Like I’ll early. I’m not gonna say it like that, but like I’ll early discharge you. I’ll tell you that I think that you should go somewhere else because like my expertise is not aligned with what I think you need. I’ll find someone to refer you to that. There’s like always professional ways to do that, but I’m not spending my time with someone either. So I think it’s just being able to create authentic relationships and like truly enjoy spending time with each other and building buy-in both directions. Like you’re gonna tell me you’re doing what I asked you to do at home. Like we have to create some kind of relationship where I trust what you’re telling me, right? Like I trust that you’re actually doing what you said versus uh yeah. Like, okay, maybe they are, maybe they aren’t, but I don’t care. I just need this person to come in and fill my schedule. So I think at the end of the day, it all comes down to just human to human connection.

Dr. Fick: I completely agree. And in my experience over the last almost 25 years now, as a PT, I think that what people appreciate the most. It’s just that authenticity and being open and honest and genuine, and they’re gonna know that we genuinely care about them and genuinely want the best results for them, and that we’re gonna do everything possible to make sure that happens. And just building that trust. They become patients for life. They send their neighbors, friends, teammates, and that’s how I think you organically grow a business in the community. And I think you’re doing a really good job of that. And that’s what we strive to do here as well. And we’re not for everyone. We’re not gonna be a good fit for everyone, and that’s okay. And I think just realizing who our ideal clients are and who we can best serve is really key in that therapeutic alliance.

Dr. Fick: Another question that I had for you, what is your view on coaching and how can we use coaching to become better sports physical therapists, and how does this benefit our athletes?

Jamie: So I think probably the biggest, well, for many reasons, but one of the biggest kind of career changers that I had was being able to spend time at EXOS, not only for the obvious reasons of like the exposure and being able to make connections and treat high level athletes, right? It was because day in and day out I had the opportunity to work alongside professionals that were not physical therapists, and I got to listen to how strength coaches do things. They are way better at cueing things. I think every physical therapist should have the opportunity to spend time with a good strength coach, even a decent strength coach, we are not taught, I think like the biggest flaw in the physical therapy framework of education is we’re not actually taught anything about exercise prescription or how to move. I think like the line that I always heard in school was you’ll learn it on your clinical, just absolute bogus, pay all that money to just be told like, yeah, you’ll learn it eventually. So I think every PT needs to understand how to cue. I think every physical therapist, regardless of who you work with, needs to also be a coach. Now, we’re coaching differently, but I’m still coaching you how to get a movement, and I think the better we get at understanding how to coach and understanding humans and how humans interact and how humans relate, we get the outcomes we’re looking for. Like I see so many people work with patients, and they’re like, oh, like you should just feel this here. Like, do you feel this here? And they say No. It’s like, all right, well like keep doing it. No. Like if they’re not getting the desired outcomes that we’re both, that they need and you’re looking for, then we do need to do a better job at prescribing that exercise or coaching them to get the outcome that you want them to have. So I think being able to understand conceptually and from a non biomechanical standpoint how to coach and how to help and how to view somebody through. I think it’s probably one of the biggest things that we’re missing as a profession.

Dr. Fick: I would agree. And, and don’t you think that’s where our model comes back into, into play when we’re talking about, you know, if we’re hiring rehab techs and aids to take our patients through exercises, they don’t know how to cue. They don’t know how to look for compensations. They just say, oh yeah, it’s okay. Keep doing that. And the physical therapist is, you know across the room without, not even an earshot. I mean, don’t you think that’s one of the pitfalls of traditional physical therapy?

Jamie: A hundred percent. What, like, what irks me the most is like, I have, right? Like I have the opportunity to talk to parents on a pretty regular basis prior to them coming into the clinic. And, you know, people, you know, I hear it all the time. I’m gonna go for the lower cost option through insurance. And it’s hard to have the conversation without sounding a little egotistical, but I’ve been in this world for a long time. I’ve seen the people who I’ve seen are, there’s photos are on the wall. Like I don’t need to sit here and tell you who I’ve worked with, and I say that to the parents, but you’re not working with that person when you go to your mill clinic that has the $20 copay that you get one of five patients now, or you’re not working with a physical therapist. That’s just the reality ’cause insurance model doesn’t allow us to get paid enough, so it’s, I think it’s one of the biggest flaws in our profession in that people don’t realize that you, the majority of the time you spend in physical therapy is with a rehab tech or a rehab aide, which is most likely a high school kid getting some observation hours, or a college kid that is in college looking for a job that wants to be a physical therapist. That is where, at least I know when I worked in those clinical settings, the majority of my patients spent the majority of their time with my techs and my aides. That was me. They got about 10 to 15 minutes of my time in the hour to hour and 20 minutes that they were there. It’s, you know, it’s like, I hate to say you get what you pay for, but that is the model of our system and it sucks ’cause people don’t realize that until they’re too far gone or the worst is, then they get better. But that’s just because they’re not doing anything to aggravate themselves for six to eight weeks. So their like systemic cycle of injury is now into like, it’s later stages and they’re fine. They’re feeling better, but they haven’t fixed the problem by any means, right?

Dr. Fick: I mean, you do truly get what you pay for and I think a lot of our clients are starting to see that. But yeah, convincing the rest of the world I think is one of our things that we’ve been tasked with