Welcome to the PT Rebels Podcast. This is the place to learn how you can become a PT rebel and take charge of your own health and wellness. We will help you find answers to your questions about pain, injury, and the path towards healing in the most efficient and effective way possible. I’m your host, Dr. Gina Fick.
On today’s episode, I sit down with my good friend Kelcey Finn. Kelcey has worked as a strength and conditioning specialist for many years now and has worked in a variety of sports performance settings. And today I wanted to highlight the importance of strength and conditioning training for active adults and athletes of all ages, as well as the importance of the collaborative relationship between strength and conditioning specialists and physical therapist. Kelcey, welcome to the podcast. It’s an honor to have you with us today.
Kelcey: Hello, Gina. It’s good to see you again.
Dr. Fick: I have a few questions for you. You know, you and I have actually talked about doing this for quite some time, and I’m so excited that we’ve had the opportunity to do this now, and thank you for just taking the time to sit down with me and chat. First of all, can you tell us more about yourself and your background and experience and what led you to the position that you have now as a strength and conditioning coach?
Kelcey: Of course, I’ll try to keep it brief. I think there was a point kind of in undergrad where I ended up at University of Colorado, Colorado Springs, getting a degree in strength and conditioning, but wasn’t sure what I wanted to do with it and had no real compulsion in any direction. Otherwise, I would’ve spent my time in Colorado Springs much more productively. The Olympic Training Center and USOC being right there. But fast forward maybe a year, and I found myself at the University of Arkansas and I landed in their Olympic sports internship, unpaid intern, and was put right smack dab into the middle of track and field season is indoor at the time. And my old mentor, Matt Clark, he was, and still is, the lead strength conditioning coach for track and field cross country there. He’s a stud. If you ever get a chance to talk to him, you should. He’s probably, in my opinion, but also factually. Best in track and field strength conditioning, but spent some time. He got a hold of me and really kind of groomed me in all the best ways and gave me a direction and a path.
And so while I was working for him, I also worked down the road at a little school called John Brown University. I worked there for free with women’s soccer. Kathleen, the head coach, another incredible human being, one of the best coaches I’ve ever worked with. She let me help her with soccer for about two years. And in my last semester at John Brown, one of my kiddos looked over at me and she said, Hey, you should meet my daddy. He’s pretty cool. And her dad was Brian Kula at Cool Sports Performance. And so made the connection there and had tried to set off on a path of getting a full-time job there at Valor Christian. And then as I was finishing up at Arkansas, and by the way, unpaid intern got to finish in a paid position, but COVID hit like right in that last semester, right as everything was transitioning and so finished up at Arkansas and was trying to find a direction. There was none. So I think me and Brian kind of created a direction and one of my philosophies is whenever there is no direction, go create one. So moved up to Denver, packed up my little Subaru, put everything I had in it and I helped Brian start Cool Sports Performance.
While we were building that business, we also set off on an adventure at Valor Christian High School. And you know, I worked with him. He was, Brian was also, he was the assistant athletic director and was the head track and field coach. So I helped him with track and field. So I think Track has really built the backbone of who I am philosophy wise, as a strength coach still to this day. But you know, time went on. We, at CSP, we landed some really cool contracts. There was one with Real Colorado and then we had partnered with Cheer Athletics, Denver for cheer and dance, and that was incredible experience. However, with all private sector situations, you kind of get to a point where in order to make more money to keep progressing in some ways, you’re gonna find yourself working a lot. And I think at a certain point I was working every single day. As you know, you’re there with me and you know, the calling to work with the tactical setting had been on my heart since back at Arkansas. I was prior service, just National Guard, army National Guard for about six years, and as a medic, medical sergeant, serving those who served. Right. It’s called a service and tactical population never left me, or, yeah, the drive, the desire for that never left me.
I had made a connection at Valor Christian. Darren Krein. Again, another incredible human being, man of God for sure, who kind of got me, no, didn’t kind of get me, definitely got me set up with Justin Schwinn, who was at Kirtland Air Force Base with the 58th SOW and got to a point where I reached out to Darren. I said, Hey, do you have any connections in the tactical setting? He said, yeah, here’s Justin’s number, and I called Justin directly and that led to a job at Kirtland Air Force Base for the 58th SOW and for the CRAFT program. So CRAFT stands for Comprehensive Readiness for Air Crew Flight Training. And so Kirtland is a schoolhouse. It’s both, I would call it an operation, operation situation with the 58th special operation wing and schoolhouse where a lot of air crew come in. There’s seven different airframes there, and that’s important for later on in this story.
So training the air crew and the students, you know, that was important ’cause it kind of gave me insight and made connections there and talk to people that led to this job, having been the first onsite for the CRAFT program there at Kirtland, I got thrown into a leadership position where I helped lead and direct CRAFT program, but also wore the hat as being a strength conditioning coach. More hats, more work. Not enough paid though. The people there. That was one of the absolute best work experiences I’ve ever had. And the people to the population that we serve. The bosses that I had there, mentors is excellent and Albuquerque is an interesting place to live for sure. But through my connections, my old boss, Justin there at Kirtland, he got me in contact with some of the female leaders around AFSOC. Their position is called Human Performance Advisor, HPA, and started talking to some of them and made a connection with the one that’s over here at Okinawa. And, you know, I got off the phone with her and I messaged her and I was like, I had a great conversation talking to you. I wouldn’t mind just being a strength coach wearing one hat for the first time in my career in a long time. Just one hat. And she said, well, actually, I may have a job over in mainland over at Yokota Air Base and applied for that job the called a billet or position that switched over here and I’m at Kadena Air Force Base working with the maintainers squadron. And so there’s a lot of details that go into that I’m sure we’ll get into for sure in a minute, but so that’s where I started and this is where I am now.
Dr. Fick: That is such an incredible story of just honestly persistence. You, you know, you described a lot of positions where you had unpaid internships and it just speaks to your passion and drive, I think, and persistence to be the very best strength, conditioning coach and person that you can be. And I’ve watched that in person and I’ve watched your hard work, and I can attest to the fact that you’ve put a lot into the position that you have now. I know you’re a lifelong learner and I just really respect that about you and I look forward to talking, you know, more detail about some of these things that you mentioned because it’s really inspiring. I think for our audience, whether they’re active adults, athletes, or just general population that’s listening right now, I think there’s a lot that we can take from your story and your talents. Kelcey, can you please tell us what a strength and conditioning specialist does? How that can benefit active adults and athletes of all ages.
Kelcey: You know, I was referencing only wearing one hat as a strength and conditioning coach, but I guess the irony in that is how a strength coach actually wears multiple hats. So this is an essay. Long answer for sure. I mean, what I’ve done in this last month since arriving over here on Okinawa, I’ve met with the leadership to kind of get a feel for the temperature. Temperature in the room for what all these airmen are needing from a performance standpoint. And performance is an all encompassing word. It’s how you sleep, it’s how you do your job. It’s the aches, pains, and strains that they have on a daily basis within their body, within their mind, and even the things that are affecting their family, right? So met with them. I’ve met with my actual team where there’s other strength coaches, another athletic trainer, physical therapist and such. Again, gauging the temperature of things and also I’ve met with my athletic trainer who has kind of the heartbeat. She’s been here for about six or seven months, kinda gauging the heartbeat of our squadron and kind of what she’s been dealing with on the return to play injury, resilience side of things, and also getting out there, meeting with our counselors and social workers. Get feel for how are, how are our airman handling stress and everything. What is the need and desire for them to get with me as quickly as possible. Right. And then actually meeting and getting in front of the airmen that I serve and listening to what their needs and requests are. And they had me, they had me busy like, can we have a power lifting program? Can we have a conditioning program? Can we all encompassing strength program? Like there’s so much, so a lot of programming, but there’s a lot that goes into programming too. And so what is it that I do? I would say, you know, there for a long time, especially in the sports setting, what I used to say that my goals and philosophies were, which dictates what I do. I am here to build resiliency. Resiliency is multifaceted. It’s, it used to be how do I keep them in their sport? How do I make sure that if they do get hurt, they return as quickly as possible? You know, I used to say it’s hard to prevent injury. It’s can’t keep a kid from getting side tackled from behind. As I’ve transitioned to the tactical side, now resiliency is the name of the game. And so how do I build that? And actually it’s turning out that I can prevent a lot of the injuries that they’re facing. And once soldiers air career men, they, they get into this side of things in their career. Most of their injuries are coming from the weight room or preparing for their PT test with running overuse injuries and such. And so what do I do? I kinda, I gauge, I run a needs analysis. I see what’s needed, and then I step up and I try to create an environment that is conducive towards building resiliency from a physical standpoint. And I also try to build community, and that’s the coach side of things. How do I relate to these people? How do I make sure that the weight room is an intimidating place and it becomes something that they enjoy that way they do it for the long term. Because especially with my maintainers, they’re the ones that keep the planes in the air and they work 24 hour shifts, 24 hour shifts. There’s, it’s crazy. And what it’s become is they’re the ones that take care of the whole wing, but who takes care of them? And that’s where me and my athletic trainer have really stepped up. So we’re here to serve those who serve the love on ’em.
Dr. Fick: That’s fantastic. Just the holistic approach that you have to that and just the vision that you have for what’s best for them and how you’re collaborating with the athletic trainer. I love the vision and mission that you have behind what you do as a strength and conditioning specialist. And I think it just, the reason, one of the reasons I asked you that question, it’s difficult to answer, but I know that you wear so many hats and I wanted to highlight that because I saw that when I worked with you in the same building. I saw all the different hats that you wore as a strength and conditioning coach, and I saw the drive and the passion and the energy that you put behind that. And not every person has that. Not every strength conditioning coach, every physical therapist, not every athletic trainer has that level of drive and passion, and that’s, I think, what makes you different and what sets you apart and what makes you really category above a lot of the rest. And you know, I know there’s been a void since you left, and I know that you’ve been able to really bless the lives of so many more people in the new position that you have. So, I really admire that, that you actually recognize and want to fulfill those roles of many hats that a strength coaching coach can have. I was wondering what testing do you do with this population to determine the specific programming and areas of emphasis for this population?
Kelcey: Such a fun question. Okay, so there are certain AFSOC requirements. So Air Force Special Operations Command has kind of largely dictated what tests that we run them through, and there’s something called the APPA, but basically it’s just real simple. We simply put, it’s the AFSOC PT test, and so the things that are included within it, there’s the 5-10-5 pro-agility, there’s max pull-ups, there’s isometric mid thigh pull using ForceX, preferably if we have that equipment. ForceX is very expensive. We love them now, they’re great. Otherwise I’ve seen them sub that out with like a three rep max trap bar deadlift as an example. And there is a 2000 meter row. So those are fatiguing tests. Right. And that wasn’t even all of them. But then there’s also non fatiguing tests such as Y balance, there’s shoulder flexibility, and then there’s like grip test for example. And yeah, there’s a lot. There’s a lot that goes into it. And what we’re trying to do, like, especially with like the non fatiguing test shoulder flexibility we’re trying to catch. So a lot of that’s gonna come from like the FMS, right? Where we’re trying to catch those zeros and ones even on the grip test, if we do it a certain way, we can do a horizontal grip test, then an overhead grip test. And using something like the overhead grip test, we can start to catch like shoulder impingement. And especially that’s important for a group like the maintenance maintainers where they’re always working overhead, but as well as like our pilots, pilots and air crew. And so, but I would say that once we start to get more into the performance setting, so those are AFSOC requirements, but I can also decide what test I want to run my people through. Like as I start to come in for my classes, strength conditioning classes that we hold, how am I engaging my program? So the effectiveness of it. And so different things, I’ve done in the past and I gotta give a shout out to one of the greatest mentors I’ve ever had. Just laying. Bart gotta get him on this conversation at some point. That man is a guru, but we’ve done stuff like RPR drivers. So what are your drivers and how can we help reset the body back to balance, getting more in depth like the FMS screening, straight leg raise, rotary stability. And one of my favorite things of all time is just real simply the vertical jump test and use it to measure nervous system, how the nervous system is holding itself, holding steady, and then also just the effectiveness of programming and then we start to get into rep maxes, et cetera.
Dr. Fick: So are there any injury patterns that you’ve noticed in this population, maybe specifically pilots or other airmen or other, the population that you are noticing? Any trends?
Kelcey: So this conversation gets really fun and interesting really quickly. And so where I would begin with is like, who would’ve thought our pilots and front-end air crew can have different injuries than like the backside air crew. And so front end is gonna be like your CSOs, your ZOs, your pilots, and back enders. You’re gonna be like your load masters. And so load masters in the back, they’re picking up stuff, they’re rotating in a flexed spine position. Sometimes no matter how much the instructors and such, cue them not to. But like the plane vibration. And so pilots are facing forward, but the plane vibration through their discs and their back, right. And then, like CSOs, ZOs, CSOs in this case are gonna be sitting sideways. And so they’re the ones that are gonna be nauseous, like almost the entire flight. And so we’ve had to do stuff or we would like to do more things, especially from a research based entryway into like looking at like how do the eyes and the ears affect, you know, balance coordination and how does that impact their nausea during your flight? And so, and then we start to look in at other populations such as Maintenance Squadron, which is what I have, where we are having to deal with like their overhead positions. And so shoulder impingement and neck, neck injuries, lower backs, knees, but I think I mentioned it a couple minutes ago. Once we start dealing with this specific kind of population, what most of their injuries are, for the most part are gonna be coming from the weight room. And so what we’ve had to do a lot of is just reteaching technique and how I used to teach technique in the private sector setting. Whenever you’ve got 30 kids coming through and you’ve got 45 minutes to get them through the weight room, a lot has changed with how I coach the deadlift, the squat, the bench press, everything. How I guess. Anal, I am about perfect. Be perfect with kids. It’s like we want them to be good. And I guess whenever there’s higher pressure, faster pace, there’s a certain point of good enough, which I don’t actually come down. The deeper I get into the field, the more I face palm myself and my colleagues, but, but especially whenever we start dealing with people who are in their late twenties, thirties, forties, fifties. And I mentioned just a second ago addressing Bart. He has always said that one of the first things that he noticed, he came from the NFL setting into into this, the tactical side. And what he said was, it seems like this field will age them so much quicker than any other job or environment he’s ever seen. And I can vouch for that. I’m 31 and there are 31 year olds who they look like they’re pushing into their late thirties just from the wear and tear. And the shift work and the stress and everything that’s going on over here, over here and around. And then other than that, just in general, just your standard sport things, lower back pain, knees, shoulders.
Dr. Fick: In your current performance setting, who do you collaborate with and how has this benefited you, not only professionally, but how does this benefit the population that you serve?
Kelcey: Just in regards specifically to the population that I serve. I am collaborating all the time with the airmen and airmen themselves. They’re old enough to be able to come and seek me out and come and get help directly. But my athletic trainer and I are two terrible twins. We are literally sit side by side and we talk all day about how we are going to help them feel better, what needs to happen, and then talking to the leadership over there, and then what they’re seeing that they’re needing, and then I would say professionally, I’ve got some coworkers over here who have come from really interesting places from, I think there’s two or three of them that were on the actual Olympic side of things. Like Olympic level. Olympic Olympic level. So that’s been pretty cool. But other than that, it’s always, I think I spend at least one or two phone calls a week talking to old mentors, Justin Schwinn, Jess, like there’s. Especially whenever you can find a mentor who is so well connected with the rest of the strength conditioning community, being able to, it’s like you’re just, by talking to one person, you’re actually talking to 10. Right. It’s pretty interesting.
Dr. Fick: In your experience, in what ways can physical therapists and strength conditioning specialists best collaborate together? And can you give us a few examples of what that looks like in a high level sports performance training center setting?
Kelcey: I think that one of the most important things that needs to happen whenever there’s a strength coach or, and a medical provider coming together under in the same roof, or even not geographically separated, but serving the same population, is y’all gotta sit down as quickly as possible and get to know each other. And that isn’t exclusive to tell me about your philosophies. It’s also like, who are they? Where do they come from? Because they’re gonna be someone that you talk to all the time if you’re doing it right. So, but also, yeah, the philosophy question matters. You want them to know where you stand. One of the first conversations that I had over here with my athletic trainer was, Hey, I am not trying to do your job. Please don’t try to do mine. And it’s real easy, like right to start to bleed, bleed over back and forth. You know, strength and conditioning has made a big push into return to play, but I didn’t spend years learning how to become an athletic trainer, just like my athletic trainer has not spent years becoming what I am, and they are, if I drew a Venn diagram, there’s similarities, but there’s more differences in my opinion. And so kind of delineating roles and responsibilities and having respect for it. And then other than that, being relatable and being an ally because you’re, you’re a physical therapist, you’re athletic trainer. There’s an old thing that, that Matt Clark used to say, which is, what is it? Something about the last ones thanked first. One’s blamed. Yep. And that, I guess that’s all of our physical human performance support staff. Right. First one’s blamed. Last one’s thanked. And so realizing that you’ve got a built in community right next to you, if you’ll treat it with care and love on it.
Dr. Fick: Absolutely. And I think just you and I worked really well together because I was able to work so closely together and observe you and see what talents that you had and how you could best serve the athletes that I was sending over to you and vice versa. And so I think that relationship that you highlighted is so key and essential to developing that trust between medical professional and strength and conditioning coach, and knowing and understanding what you’re training and how you train so that we can get our athletes ready for your training that you’re going to put them into, and we can start to do rudimentary things that as physical therapists and then when they’re ready to see you, turn them over with great trust and respect and let ’em thrive with you. And I think that’s a relationship that really works well setting and I think we really worked well together and I so appreciated that. And I know our athletes appreciate that as well.
Kelcey: Right. And one thing that I, I try to do immediately with you, Gina, and what I’ve tried to do immediately over here with who I work with now is like putting my ego aside. You know, I think what one of my favorite things to do with you was, you know, the athlete handoff and everything. And then I would go write something out and I would come back to you and I would show you. And it, it was like a built-in safe, like a safety, just in regards to, I would say that kind of helped build the trust between you and I. You were able to see it. You’re able to also see me execute it, but also I helped me make sure I didn’t do anything without anything outside of my actual capacity. And I didn’t, I guess like the number one thing was to not hurt the athlete. Not hurt, not cause further injury. So that would be a good reminder for strength coaches and anybody out there is put your ego aside and stay humble and respect everyone’s education and experience.
Dr. Fick: Exactly. I would completely agree. And I think who wins in that situation are the clients that we’re serving, and I think they gain respect for both of us and that team that we build. And, you know, there’s really no no room for egos in this situation. I think that only hurts our clients and our athletes that we’re trying to serve. But when, you know, when you would come to me, I think 99.9% of the time, I was always on board and just really trusted you. I think what I appreciated is just the gesture and the fact that you would wanna come and talk to me and get my opinion. But I trusted you so much. Like, yeah, that, that sounds fantastic, Kelcey. That’s exactly the direction that I think we should go. And then we could also go back and tell the coaches or the parents or whoever was, that was also in the situation that we collaborated together. So that builds buy-in and trust from the whole situation. So I know that people really appreciated that. That’s what helps build a performance team too, right? We’re gonna talk about buy-in, especially like in the setting that you’ve been in, like still in the private sector area a little bit, right? Like parents, how do you explain to them what a performance team is or whenever you can just give them an example of one and also why they should continue to invest in it. So it’s all encompassing, right? So that actual holistic approach, hard to find in the private sector setting for sure.
Dr. Fick: Really is, I think, and I, and I hope that improves in the future. I think that’s gonna take some work, but I think it’s really something that would really benefit, mutually benefit our athletes and coaches alike and, and overall enhance performance and enhance the trust and respect that we have for, for all of our professions and as a team. This leads into the next question, Kelcey. How do you build trust and buy-in with your clients? Why is it important for an athlete to find a strength condition coach who values this type of relationship?
Kelcey: This is one of my favorite questions for sure. Like, how so? Two parts, right? The first part being how do you build trust and buy-in with your athletes? And you know that, that question also can also be tailored to, depending on where you’re at too. But one of my first answers is be compelling. Be compelling, be relational. And man, I still, no matter where I’ve been, that comment’s been in my head every single day. Be compelling. And it’s the energy that you bring, it is the way that you look them in the eye and that you, you learn their name and you say, they say their name, say their name a couple times during the training session, and it’s so sweet. A sound in anyone’s ears. Right? And then from there, like getting to know their why. How can you, how can you tailor the goals of the session, the goals of the program to their needs and their why, and always point it back into that direction, the reason why they’re here. And between those, those few things I’ve, I’ve always, for the most part, been able to build trust and buy-in pretty quickly, be relational, be someone that they can understand too. And so, yeah. But also outside of the human piece is the actual academic piece, right? Have put in the work to have an education, to help support in order to actually create a program and drive it forward to point into the direction that they want to go. And I think that in a lot of ways, this is gonna be a loaded statement, but I have been shocked to get deeper and deeper into my field to realize how many strength coaches stop. They stop getting educated, they stop. They’re continuing education. They stop pushing forward, and that breaks my heart because strength and conditioning research is finally starting to come around. Finally, like as an example, and this is gonna be a tangent, you may have to bring me back home, but research is finally supporting what we’ve known. There was an NSCA position statement probably a couple years ago that talked about how strength hypertrophy. All qualities are built in all rep ranges, and so what’s what’s also starting to come out is more fatigue, science, PNS, fatigue, CNS, fatigue more and more and more so. And how many effective reps are required per set? Ask a strength coach that they should know. It’s actually no more than five effective reps needed per set, and how many sets are needed. Once we start pushing past four to six negligible, and all you’re doing is creating PNS fatigue, like, so why do we still, are we still taking kids and kids and adults and professionals through high volume, high? Like we’re not, we’re not paying attention to the research programming isn’t, and so we’re sending them into competition and games and just completely trashed for no reason, with no supporting evidence that what we’re doing is actually working. There’s, there’s a lot to it. And so that’s why, like I said, you, that was gonna be a rabbit hole, but that’s why the education is so important. Like if you’re not staying up on research or if you’re only hearing information secondhand, that’s bastardized, bastardized information game, telephone. You know, that’s another, another thing that I found in the field is that people have taken certifications and licensure and just introduced it to people and called it good without those people going and digging further. Right? So to bring it back, like it’s important, you wanna actually create buy-in. Yeah. Be a human, be someone that they can relate to and want to be around and talk to, but have the supporting educational material in your, in your pocket to pull out, call it your toolbox to have a reason for what you’re doing within a program. So get results if you wanna actually get results. Be educated and know what you’re doing. Why is it important for an athlete to find the strength against and coach who values this type of relationship with trust and buy-in? Do you know what, like as a coach, you wanna enjoy what you do also, like you wanna enjoy it? I think that, you know, if I, if it was only for the sets and reps and biomechanics of things, I would’ve just become a strength conditioning researcher. I’d be working, probably finishing up my PhD right now, doing the research at a university. So, but it’s the people, it’s the people piece that has me in a coaching position. And so find someone who’s passionate about what they do and their passion is gonna speak and the energy that they bring in, how they relate to the people that are in front of them and what they do in order to continue sharpening their knife. Right.
Dr. Fick: It totally, it answers it so well, and I think it really speaks to, again, your drive and passion to always improve as a strength conditioning coach, as a human, as an individual. That you’re not complacent, that you’re always looking at the research and how, how do you improve? And I think that’s a good lesson for physical therapists as well. I’ve worked with so many PTs who are fantastic, but I’ve also worked with PTs who are extremely complacent, or the PT model, the traditional PT model where. Physical therapist will only see their patients for 15 minutes, pass their care onto rehab. Tech or Aid, the rehab Tech or Aid goes through a list of five 10 exercises with the patient. The same exercises that they’re normally doing at home, they don’t know how to critique. They don’t know how to form the exercises correctly. They don’t know how to critique those exercises if the patient’s not performing it correctly. There’s no adequate progression, and I think that’s why a lot of people decide that physical therapy doesn’t work. And then I think they do seek out early services or, you know, oftentimes US strength conditioning specialists see these clients in the gym and they are, they have these huge deficiencies or asymmetries because they haven’t received good care. And so whether that be because of complacency on the part of the physical therapist or just, you know, poor care in general because of a broken healthcare model and system. I think that that’s one way that I feel like we as physical therapists really need to improve. And again, it highlights the emphasis and need for strength and conditioning specialists to collaborate with because there is such a oftentimes like drop off in performance or even rehab because these clients and these athletes aren’t getting what they need. And you’ve seen it. I mean, we can talk about examples all night long. We’ve talked about it before. You know, we’ve got ACLs in here that are, what, 60%? You know, we, I can think of an ACL that both of you and I both saw, right? And that we just cringe and you go, what in the world just happened in the rehab for the last nine months? You know?
Dr. Fick: I think this leads into the next question, Kelcey, if you had a one piece of advice to give athletes and. What directions should they go when choosing a solid strength and conditioning specialist, what qualities and characteristics should that person look for?
Kelcey: Man, I think that the minimum licensure or CSCS certified strength and conditioning specialist, and I wanna pause on that one because it’s, to me, it’s the minimum that is the minimum requirement. Even if it’s, there’s other, other sport performance certifications, fine. Okay. But I think that establishing a certain desire to be competent is something to look for for sure. They don’t have to have